Do you guys think that whilst you are dancing your brain is really doing all of these calculations. Have you even thought that a Feather Step or a Feather Finish are not the same. How about one guy with size 12 shoes and another alongside with size six. Which will have the least distance to go and therefore could arrive quicker than the other. The same with the heel leaving the floor who has the shorter distance to go six or twelve. And yet whether short or tall they still arrive on the beat. We haven't even got into the length of the legs yet. Please guys put your calculators away and just dance. Or go look at Marcus Hilton and tell me exactly what you can see. I don't know who fills your heads with this absolute clap trap. What I can tell you it is not a dancer.
To say that I would have to count frames and simply can't count whilst watching. Well I can , and anybody who cares to look can also. They will see all of those quicks landing right on the button.If they are stepping inbetween the beats they would be out of time. And out of time they are not. Are they ?.

Serendipidy. I don't see how the size of one's shoes would have to do with body swing or flight but if you think it has well so be it. The more questions one ask the more we all learn. What may start out as a simple question can lead to advance concepts that benefit everyone.Cheers

Hi Serendipity
I can't agree with your most recent comments. First, i don't dance with lots of calculations going on in my head. But i practice in all sorts of different ways. Let me tell you a little anecdote. Some time ago (maybe a year) someone here posted a comment about the start of the first quick always being on beat 3(this was a feather step followed by reverse turn) - the other steps can be 'played' with. So i started practising my feather steps, 3-steps and reverse wave with my steps landing on 1&, 3, 4& (a sort-of slowish - slowish - quick rhythm). At first i had to count in half beats, and i did it on my own. But quite soon i realised that the 'feel' of the dancing matched the music much better than the 'official timing of 1,3,4 (i.e. S,Q,Q). So now i don't have to count - i've learnt the 'feel' and it's beautiful. This is the real pleasure of the foxtrot.
Secondly, the Marcus Hilton You-tube videos, which i've studied, are exactly what you said - Basic Foxtrot. Watch any top competition and they definitely don't dance 'on the beat'. Because it doesn't look so good, and it definitely doesn't feel so good.
Whoever posted that original comment - if you're still out there many thanks. It's helped me develop my foxtrot and to have a much better appreciation of the dance

"And yet whether short or tall they still arrive on the beat. "

Not in foxtrot they don't!

"To say that I would have to count frames and simply can't count whilst watching. Well I can"

Not to accurately determine the timing you can't. That's the whole point. Human visual/audio perception is notoriously unreliable for determining when things actually happen.

But careful measurements in reference to the video frame rate can reliably tell use the amount to time between two events. If that amount of time is significantly different than a beat or multiple thereof, we know it's simply impossible for both events to be happening on beats, even if some people's eyes deceive them into thinking that they are.

If you want the real answer, don't trust your eyes, find a clock to use to actually measure the time.

That's not to say that you can't look at dancers and say that they are off time - you can, but what you are evaluating when you do that for a flowing dance like foxtrot is not what you think it is - it's much more about matching proportions of timing than the precise matchup of steps to music.

As a dancer, to be on time, your job is to internalize that proportion, not by knowing its exact fractions, but by memorizing what it feels like.

How on earth did we manage to dance the Foxtrot for all those years without digital photography which has only been with us for a very short time. I think what could be more important than stuffing the Foxtrot into a pigeon hole is to listen to how the professionals and teachers count. Marcus Hilton who I mention because at the moment is the easiest to look up counts Slooow. quick. quick. Those interested might look at the Waltz also which is counted One. Twooo Three. In both cases he holds onto the word longer.
Very sad to hear the passing away of Bill Irvine who did so much for ballroom dancing.

"How on earth did we manage to dance the Foxtrot for all those years without digital photography which has only been with us for a very short time."

Because it's enough to copy your teacher and memorize what it feels like to do that.

You don't have to scientifically analyze it in order to do it. However, if you do take reliable measurements of the timing (and movie film, which has been around longer than foxtrot of the form being discussed, works even better), you may discover that what actually happens with regard to timing is not what you thought.

"I think what could be more important than stuffing the Foxtrot into a pigeon hole is to listen to how the professionals and teachers count."

Only if their actual when-it-counts dancing matches their counting on teaching tapes. Careful measurements of those competition videos do not match what you claim for the counts. Jonathan has posted here in the past on the conflict between what he'd feel compelled to say in a teaching exam, vs. what he'd actually do in a competition.

Let me close by quoting phil samwise on the actual impact on his dancing of using a count that does somewhat better approximate the timing you can measure from a video of quality foxtrot:

"So i started practising my feather steps, 3-steps and reverse wave with my steps landing on 1&, 3, 4& (a sort-of slowish - slowish - quick rhythm). At first i had to count in half beats, and i did it on my own. But quite soon i realised that the 'feel' of the dancing matched the music much better than the 'official timing of 1,3,4 (i.e. S,Q,Q). So now i don't have to count - i've learnt the 'feel' and it's beautiful. This is the real pleasure of the foxtrot."

Anonymous. I'm afraid you've lost me once again. In your last paragraph. Why don't you count the Feather Step S Q Q. Or 1 2. 3. 4. Where I am completely lost is how you appear to manage to do a Reverse Wave after a Three Step. What you are describing is a Natural Wave not a Reverse Wave. Unless by 3-steps you don't mean Three Step. And to use the word Feather Steps is equally as misleading. In both cases you have gone plural instead of singular for whatever reason.

"Anonymous. I'm afraid you've lost me once again. In your last paragraph. "

Serendipity, those are not my words. Why don't you reread my message with a bit more care then address your questions to phil who is cited as the author of the passage that seems to be troubling you?

But I must say I found phil's comments perfectly comprehensible - if I hadn't I wouldn't have quoted them as a positive illustration. It is quite obvious that he is not proposing a sequence of figures, but a general catalog of SQQ elements, each of which he practices with this timing. And I'm quite sure we that when he says reverse wave, that's what he means, either in its simple or extended form, since both are great examples for this timing.

Having looked at Hiltons basic foxtrot I noticed that his rise from swing and flight continues into beat four,although the difference between beat 3&4 is slight,this suggest to me that his free foot{RF} must swing under the body on beat four at the peak of rise and not hitting the floor until around beat one?

I see what you mean. You were only quoting. Why would anyone count the beats any different to the one counting on the video. A test to see if it is necessary to be able to count, and in particular if you are putting a routine together yourself. Marcus Hilton's first eleven bars in his routine. Feather Step. Reverse Turn. Three Step. Hover Cross. Feather Finish. Open Telemark. Outside Swivell. Natural Weave. There are slows and quicks. How many quicks are there and how many slows. No need to answer. There are a total of 44 beats. 26 are quicks and there are 9 slows which will equall all up 44 beats which equalls eleven bars of music. That routine fits the music. If you accidently did an extra slow or quicks it won't fit the music which is eight bar phrased. You will no doubt notice that he dances 1 2 3 4 and not 3 4 1 2 at any time.
It gets even more interesting if you count Scatter Chasses in the Quickstep.